Cat Galeano joined author Andrea L. Rogers and illustrator Rebecca Lee Kunz on Instagram Live to celebrate their new picture book Chooch Helped.

Watch the conversation or read the full transcript below. (You can see closed captions by hovering over the bottom of the video and choosing the “CC” icon.)

More about Andrea and Rebecca:

Andrea’s website: andrealrogers.com
Andrea on Instagram: @andrealrogers

Rebecca’s website: treeoflifestudio.net
Rebecca on Instagram: @treeoflife.studio

Full Transcript:

Cat Galeano:
A big hello to our Highlights Foundation family. We’re so very happy to have you here with us today. For those that may not know me, I’m Cat Galeano. My pronouns are she, her. I’m also the social media manager here at the Highlights Foundation, also known as the person who’s resharing your post, responding to you with blue and green hearts. I am the human behind the account, and I’m very, very happy to be with you here today. I’m also coming to you from Westchester County, New York on the traditional lands of the Seewanoy people.

And apart from all the things I get to do at the Highlights Foundation, my greatest joy, if not my favorite, favorite thing I get to do, is celebrate the book birthdays of our community members, faculty, and friends, because your wins are our wins, and this is just such a joy for me. And today I have the honor of celebrating our friends, Andrea L. Rogers and Rebecca Lee Kunz and their new picture book, Chooch Helped, which Andrea wrote and Rebecca illustrated, which I also found out is Rebecca’s debut picture book, which is so very, very exciting to hear.

And before we dive in, I just want to remind our viewers that joining in in any Highlights Foundation spaces and sessions to please do so with no hate, no harm, and no harassment of any kind. Now we’re gonna get started with our questions. So my first question to the both of you, which is what I love to ask everybody that I chat with, is how are you feeling? The book is out in the universe, in the hands of the readers, in the classrooms, in people’s homes. So how are you feeling?

Andrea L. Rogers:
Amazing.

Rebecca Lee Kunz:
Yes, very happy.

Andrea:
Very happy, yes. Yeah, it’s been really nice to get messages from people who love Chooch. And they probably love Sissy too, but they’re like, oh. So it’s really nice to get those messages and have people say that, one, they’re happy to see contemporary Cherokee culture, which has been absent from picture books for children for a very long time. For so long, everything focused on prior to 1839. There was nothing contemporary. And so this is showing that, you know, culturally we’re still here. As a tribe, we’re still here. As a people, we’re still here. And we’re not extinct. And we do continue our cultural ways, arts. But we also adapt because…one of the pictures in the book is about a bicycle. And it’s about the, it’s, for me, it was, I thought of the Remember the Removal Ride that the Cherokee Nation does along with the Eastern Band that honors our ancestors. And, and descendants retrace that trail on bike. And so that thousand mile trail, they ride that. And so we, you know, we do adapt and we do–any technology a Cherokee can get a hold of and can figure out how to make culture happen, they will.

Cat:
Do you want to add anything, Rebecca?

Rebecca:
Well, it’s just been such a joy, this whole process, learning how to make a picture book and working with Andrea. I knew right away when I read the story that I loved it. It’s a wonderful story. And the yeah, it’s been just exciting and fun. And I’ve learned an enormous amount in a world and see just see people interacting with it and enjoying it. And I’m so glad that it’s in the hands of children now where it should be and, and parents reading it to their kids. And it’s really exciting. And it’s yeah, it’s been a lot of joy.

Andrea:
Yeah. And, and I have to say, I was I have been talking up the art on this book, like since I saw Rebecca’s first pages and I had seen Rebecca’s art before that and I loved it. But what was so funny is when I got the book or when they sent me the digital copy without my text just with her art, I was like, oh, wow, you don’t even need my words. But, but no, it is wonderful. Every picture, I mean, every picture is worth a thousand words. And but what that means to me is like a little kid who can’t read yet can pick it up and they know what happens. Yeah. Yeah. And so she really told the story that I told with words, she told with pictures.

And so it was such a great, it was such a great combination of two Cherokee women making, telling a story using their own particular skill set.

Cat:
What a gift. What a gift. Yep. Truly. I finished reading the book and I was like, what a gift to the world this is. Like truly, like gift of words, gift of art, like I think you couldn’t have said it better. Two Cherokee women that just like truly gave a gift. So thank you. Thank you. So my second question, which I think you slightly touched upon this, but I kind of want to elaborate a little bit more, is can you talk to us about why this story was important to tell?

Andrea:
For me, growing up, I didn’t have any books written by Cherokee authors for children. I didn’t see people who look like my dad or my aunts or uncles or my grandparents out in the world. It was as if we didn’t exist. And I didn’t, I, you know, I think when you don’t see yourself in the world, you often question your value. And I know that children are always looking for themselves or people they love in their work. And so then I had my own kids starting like 25 years ago, and there still weren’t any books like this. Now, that being said, the Diné Navajo Nation School District, they had done and some smaller publishers there. You can find some books like Lucy Tapahanso, illustrated by Emerson Chee. But I was in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and so I wasn’t seeing those books. And I’m also not Navajo. And so, you know, we’re not homogenous.

There are, you know, all of our tribes are different. I would love to see, you know, “Tabon Helped” from the Muscogee or, you know, whatever other nicknames you go with at different tribes. I would love to see all of them because it’s, this book, I wanted to celebrate so much of what my nation does, you know, the Remember the Removal Ride, the language, the arts program. I mean, we have a fantastic art gallery in Tahlequah, and there’s an artist center where Cherokee citizens can go and work on art and make clay and beads and earrings and work on art.

And so, there are so many wonderful things that if you’re not exposed to it, one, you can’t be exposed to everything. And two, if you’re not living right there, you may not see it. And so, I wanted to make sure I shared that. But also, as a parent, you know, there’s a part in the book where the parents make a mistake, right? And so, it’s not just Sissy growing. It’s not just Chooch growing and learning. It’s also the parents recognizing that they make a mistake. Because I’m a parent, and guess what? I’ve had to apologize. Just last night.

Anyway, so, you know, and so, you know, in both the books, it’s, you know, kind of a down from the top down all, you know, they’re still hierarchical. I can’t say the word, but you know what I mean. And so there’s not so much of also showing, you know, that we’re a community, that we’re a family, that we’re teaching each other. And so I also wanted that. Because, you know, it’s okay to mess up, but you know, it’s what you do with it. It’s how you go forward. It’s like, once you know better, can you do better? And so I wanted to also have that in the book.

So, cause there’s no doubt in my mind that these parents love these kids, but even a parent who loves you might yell at you. And they might, and hopefully they feel sorry and bad later. And so anyway, so that was part of it.

Rebecca, you said you loved it, what did you like, what did you want to see out in the world? You know, what I, and I remember even beyond the story, something you requested in the illustrations, you were really wanting, I hope I’m saying this correctly, wanting Cherokees to be represented in a, in a, in a way, a contemporary way, and it was important to you that I, as the illustrator, illustrated, contemporary real people that are not, that don’t, it’s really amazing how the stereotype still thrives. Still, and I even find myself stuck in them sometimes, and I have to just remember that it is, that, that I loved that, that challenge, and I resonated with that a lot that, especially in the Cherokee Nation, there are African descent Cherokees, there are mixed Cherokees, there are a lot of mixed Cherokees, and they, when you go to Oklahoma, especially, you see a very large variety of what people look like and act like, and what they do, and mostly doing very contemporary things, and we, like, Andrea said, not stuck in the past, and so that was important, and I, all the things that Andrea said about wanting to have representation for the Cherokee children and people, for children to be able to see themselves in these books.

And the parents, and they can be like, oh, I, I help my dad fix bikes sometimes too, or, or maybe they even get inspired to go gigging, and fixing, you know, for crawdads, and they’re like, I want to, and I, maybe they’ll, it’ll remind them of a few things that they didn’t know about, that they might want to try, or, so it’s,

And the heartwarming part of the story about, we all know a little Chooch, a little, a little guy who’s really… I have three children and I remember really well that age and how irritating they can be when they’re two to their older siblings and to the parents too, but also they just always want to help. I remember saying that to my older kids, like she’s just trying to help. She’s being helpful. She just wants to help and like helping mostly meant like not at all being helpful but making big messes. And it’s just really, yeah, it’s a sweet story and kids can really relate to it.

Andrea:
And I just really want to echo that that whole, you know, it was important to me for there to be black Cherokees because historically, I mean, if you pick up the picture books, again, as Rebecca pointed out, I mean, so many are stereotypes of this is what a Cherokee should look like. And the reality is, you know, we look all kinds of ways, and so when our kids look all kinds of ways, DNA is weird, and so, but that doesn’t, you know, what makes you Cherokee is you’re a citizen of the Cherokee Nation. You have a political identity. You also have a cultural identity, and what your ancestors went through, that’s your inheritance. And so the fact that they survived so you could be here, that’s yours.

That belongs to you, and it doesn’t matter if you’re, what you look like. And so it matters that this is yours, and if you want to do it, if you want to learn the language, those resources are out there, and so we’re asking you to please come. Please, please try and, you know, do something. And it doesn’t, you know, we all have a lot to do, but, you know, it’s possible to just plant that seed so that kids know it’s there.

Cat:
Yeah, and for like, for the non-native, like myself and for others, like, I love that, like, there was actually Cherokee words in there and that the way how to pronounce was there, which was so inviting, and I love that, like, so it wasn’t intimidating. Like, at first I was like, oh, but then you look down and you’re like, oh, so it’s like an oh, oh, so it was just so, like, it was it was just so inviting. And I just love that, like, that’s becoming more, like, it’s becoming just more normalized to see that because, like, so many of us are just speak other languages and and it’s important to just see that in books. So I just loved that the pronunciation was there and it just made it it made it very inviting. And I really, really appreciate it. And I’m sure kids will absolutely adore that. and enjoy pronouncing those words and make it like a family affair with their parents and their schools and classrooms.

So my next question is gonna be to Rebecca because we need to talk about the art. Please people, if you see this book, please pick it up. First of all, buy it. Two, if you can’t, you need to A, request it at your library, but also: pick it up, because the art is phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal. The colors, the elements, everything that was woven into it. Can you tell us about the process of getting the illustrations onto the page?

Rebecca:
Yes, so that was a bit of a learning process because I’m traditionally a painter, printmaker, mixed media artist, and I had, before this book, had not illustrated a children’s book, which is, it’s quite a different process. And I… I had to experiment with some different things before I found my technique that worked. And to keep it kind of short, I used a combination of some different collage techniques and layering watercolor. And the whole thing was put together on a program called Procreate, which some of you might be familiar with. It’s an illustration app, I guess. It’s an app that you can use on an iPad. And I found that I could keep my style that I have created over the years. And I found a way to work with that style in Procreate and with my different mixed medias, bringing in the different textures and the watercolor paper and layers. And so I work with a lot of layers. And I work with a lot of symbols. And archetypes. And so everything in the book has some significance or meaning.

And that’s how I’ve been working for quite a while now before this in my other work that I do. It’s really important to me. And so everything that you see has some significance. The background in some of the pages is a repeating motif from archaeological sites where they found pots. And the motifs from the pots are the burial mounds. And some of them are, there are a few symbols in there that are my own, but mostly that I made up. But most everything else is traditional and can be found in petroglyphs and historical sites and objects. And then the textures. Like I said, I did a lot of layering, layer, overlay, overlay, and that’s how I work with my painting also. So, and then I’ll do that. drawing and like a painting over that, over the layers of texture.

Cat:
It was just beautiful. Like, it just took Andrea’s words and just elevated it. Just the color palette for me was just like: I was salivating for the color palette. I was like the oranges, the reds, I was just: oh my god.

Rebecca:
Thank you.

Cat:
The blue was beautiful. So my next question is for both of you. Can you tell us a little about a little bit about your journey as writers, as illustrators, and how the Highlights Foundation has played a little part of it?

Andrea:
Yeah, I’ve known about Highlights for a long time and I’ve heard many other writers basically talk about how magical the retreat space was and so but it’s never like. So I know there have been a couple of Native retreats or like several Native writers going at once. And so I, I really wanted to go, but I didn’t think I could afford it. And then, um, but then. 1, I committed to, like, you know what, this is, I’m going to spend this money on myself and go and be with my people with other Native writers and illustrators because it’s, it’s just so nice to be together. And to get up in the morning and have breakfast with your friends and then go back and work or write.

And this time, Nikki Shannon Smith was our artist in residence and I was struggling with how to write a picture book that I’ve been thinking about for a very long time. And so Nikki and I, we were having lunch and I was telling her about my research and what I wanted to do. And, you know, my idea kind of where that was starting and where I wanted to go and just that one conversation with her lit me on fire. So by the time I left, I had built myself a slide show of most of the picture book. And so, you know, because I was dropping in photos and stuff, just so the editor would see what I’m talking about when I talk about a river cane basket. When I talk about river cane, when I talk about, you know, a mat, when I talk about weaving, when I talk about a home, so they could see all that.

And then, so by the time I left, I had that, you know, I had about 75% of the manuscript in pieces there. And so really, just like a week later, I had it when I got home and really worked on it a couple, a bit more. I had it. And so, and also I hadn’t I had applied for the Highlights Foundation retreat a little late. And so I had missed the scholarship application process, and that was on me. That was because I didn’t think I could go. Also, I’m a PhD student at a university and so you know, so you’re always trying to figure out when you can go and take and take off and I have a child who’s in high school and so it did require me making some arrangements for other people to step in and help out.

And so I, but I had just decided it was really a really important and then I had found out Rebecca had gotten the scholarship. And I’m like, yes, I really need to be there. And so and then at some point they found some money that I was able to apply towards what I owed and they set up a really great payment plan for me from the get go because I was concerned about paying for it all and I and so but then there was extra money found. So I was able to; it was much more affordable and it was, it was completely worth it even prior to that, though.

Cat:
Yay!

Rebecca:
Yeah. So I went to the same retreat that Andrea was talking about, that she mentioned the Native Creatives Retreat in August of this year. I had heard of the Highlights Foundation not that long ago, because this is all new to me within the last few years. I heard of it last year. And then I saw, I started looking into it and saw that Traci Sorell was the leader of the retreat. Of course, anyone who knows Traci knows she’s a leader in this world of children’s Native Cherokee literature. And she is just amazing. And I was like, I have to go. I have to go and be with her. And just like, I don’t care whatever else. I just want to go and be around her and be around the other people. And the space did look really quite magical. And it was beyond magical and beautiful and so comforting. And it’s just kind of amazing how much the food and being in a space where you can not only have space to write. And for me, I needed to, particularly because I have three children at home still, it was really important for me to get away. And get that space and clear my head and be around other creatives, writers, and artists, and be in this amazingly inspiring space.

And having a space where I can work that’s quiet or I can go and join people or I can join them for meals or I can go back and have more quiet work time. And then I was able to go for some hikes by the river. And then the food being provided was not only just wonderful. They had someone else cooking, but the food was amazing. It was like five star food. So I loved my experience and I will definitely be going back. But that, yeah, I just didn’t, I didn’t know what I was missing.

Andrea:
Yeah, Traci had talked about how it was like her magic space or magic place, because she had, she had , and she told us that story while we were there. And, you know, she had done so much hard work getting, you know, sponsors and support and, you know, put it helping put it together and doing, you know, the scheduling her and–I can’t remember who else worked on it, but Stacy Wells, maybe Elise as well. Miranda Paul was there and it was just, I never felt so cared for in all my life. And I mean, we could take walks safely, right? Which is a big deal for a woman. I mean, to be able to go out and take a walk in the woods by yourself is huge. And so to not feel, you know, always worried. And so it was just, I never felt so cared for it all my life. And so it’s just amazing work that she’s done to build community and to support other writers.

In some spaces, you’ll notice some not-so-healthy competition, some toxicity, but there was nothing like that there. We all want, I mean, gosh, I can’t write the book you can write, I can’t tell the story you have. And so why would I be jealous? So, and there was none of that. It was just love, love, love, and how can I help you? And who, and I want you to meet this person. I want you to talk to this person. You should ask Traci about that.

I don’t know how many times I’ve told people, you should talk to Traci about that. Because she is super smart and just, oh man, she’s got like 12 books out and she’s killing it. She’s amazing and they’re all wonderful.

Rebecca:
It was really fun to be, excuse me, I’m sorry. It was fun to be there with Andrea also. I didn’t mention that. It was such a bonus to be able to be there together.

Cat:
Had you known each other beforehand or did you meet there?

Rebecca:
We met one time. We met one time in person about two years ago and then we started working on the book shortly after that. So we kind of got to know each other through emailing and texting and then we have seen each other a few times since then, that being one of them.

Cat:
That’s amazing. Oh, imagine like just having like a very special retreat in-community retreat and like your author illustrator actually happens to be there. How magical is that?

Rebecca:
It was very serendipitous.

Cat:
My next question is gonna be a question for both of you and it’s sort of an advice question. What advice would you give other writers and illustrators wanting to pursue a career in. children’s lit.

Andrea:
Um gosh uh, one: always be writing. Oh you know I mean you might feel like you finished one thing and you’re like yay I finished, and now I can just wait and no you can’t because you never know who’s going to love what you want what you have and, and what illustrator will be available so I mean just always, always be doing the thing and then um you know: celebrate other writers um that’s like you know we’re a community and celebrate other writers and illustrators I mean you know call the library and recommend books by other writers um you know and it’s like…Um and I have actually, I don’t know if my students on here watching this or not; I gave her some piece of advice as number one today and I don’t really remember what it was or maybe she, maybe Shelby can drop it on. I can’t remember, I was like, number two is always keep all your contracts together, but I can’t remember what number one was. Oh, well, I’m sure it was important. Your turn, Rebecca.

Rebecca:
Well, if I’m talking and you remember, let me know and jump in. Maybe you’ll remember. But I would say to anyone interested in illustrating or art or pretty much anything that’s creative, just jump in. It can be really intimidating, especially something like illustrating a book, like how, I think a lot of people might feel like, how do I get started? How do I, how would I even begin? It can be quite overwhelming. It’s, there’s a lot to learn about when you’re, all of the whole process. And so, and there’s a lot of information out there online, like sometimes too much about, and that can be intimidating too, but I would say rather than waiting until you have an agent or the perfect opportunity that someone gives you to illustrate a book, I would just say, just start working.

Even if it’s, even if your work doesn’t look that great in the beginning, just keep learning, keep working and get yourself involved somehow, either through find a mentor or a teacher or someone online teaching, and just start on something and start working and just keep working. Even get, work through the bad, all the drawings you don’t like, all the sketches, all the, just keep pushing through and it will get better. Your work inevitably, and just if you’re consistent and you keep showing up every day and getting pushed through the hard moments when your work looks, I have been through many hard moments and years and years of creating work I was not happy with.

And somehow I just was obsessed enough to keep going, but, and I’ve gotten to this place now where I feel: it’s rewarding now, and I am so glad that I did stick with it, but I did not wait for different points in my career. I didn’t wait for the gallery to come to me and ask me. I’ve just kind of started small. Also, I’d say: start. Don’t have huge expectations in the beginning. Just start somewhere and get involved even if it’s like, if you’re a student, go work at a publishing house at the very like, just even be there and like sweep the floors and be around people that are doing it. Just to get involved and start learning about it and build slowly and be humble from the beginning, but it will eventually lead to something.

Andrea:
Oh, yeah. That was, I remember what my advice was. Yes, it was just be kind. I mean, be kind to the other, don’t yuck other people’s yums and be kind. I mean just be supportive so I guess I really did say that already but yeah that’s like number one is just like um you know you hopefully you’ll you will develop your own style and um that will be yours and so you know love on other people’s styles.

Rebecca:
Yeah study other people’s styles. That’s right, yeah.

Cat:
And I also want to say Shelby did come through and she said “check your spam folder.”

Andrea:
Thank you Shelby! Yes, always check your spam folder.

Cat:
Thank you Shelby, good advice, very good advice because stuff does end up there so thank you, thank you for that. So I’m gonna lead into our final question which is: what do you hope kids and teens will take away from your book?

Rebecca:
How about you Andrea?

Andrea:
OK, I’ll start. Um, just pause like, like that beat, right? I think it can be really easy to, to react without thinking and so I mean this is really about like pausing and um, you know, being patient with little kids right? Um being patient with your kids, being patient, um but yeah and that I don’t know um I guess treat each other with love and it can be really hard when you’re stressed and tired and hangry um and so you know maybe you know, it’s just a good loving warm book and um you know maybe that’s what you need maybe you just need to sit down with something you love and your cup of tea and just accept that you’re gonna have to refinish the floors later when you get ready to move.

Rebecca:
Yeah, that’s right.

Andrea:
And they make great stories, right? I mean, later.

Rebecca:
I think the takeaway would be, I hope, inherently by reading the book and looking at the pictures, some of the love is transferred to the readers from us, the what we created and put into it, and the care and the love for our culture and love for our craft and our art. I think that children need beauty in the world now, more than ever. They need care and they need to know that people, like being warm and caring and doing and loving is still really important and being kind is really important. And beauty, like creating beauty in the world is uplifting and inspiring. And children, I think also need to feel that, take something like they may not literally consciously think, oh, this, these people took a lot of time to make this book, but they will feel it when they’re holding the book. It will go in and the art of something that’s slowly crafted, such as a book, I think it goes in and those things are still really important, not something that’s whipped out in like a few months cause the illustrations are really done quickly or the story writing. I think the kids will feel that and the people reading it and I hope so.

Andrea:
Well, and what I was gonna say is sort of what Rebecca said about like, when you first start, you’re gonna be like Chooch, right? Yeah. We’re all gonna fail the first time or maybe we have one really great thing happen and then from then on it’s work, right? And so, be like, Chooch is trying to learn, he wants to learn, he wants to do the things, he wants to make the pots, he wants to help with the paint, he wants to garden, he wants to do all the things, but, and you’re gonna make a mess, you’re gonna fail and that’s okay, keep going.

Cat:
That’s right. And you have your support system there to back you up too, which I think was so beautiful too, to support you through it. I don’t see any questions from the chat, but I would like to open the floor to the both of you if there’s anything else you’d like to add before we go into our outro.

Andrea:
Oh, I don’t know: whatever Rebecca makes, buy it. She also did the cover for The Art Thieves, which is in the other room, so, but I’m not gonna go get it. Rebecca’s work is beautiful, she has pieces on her website for sale as well and it’s, you know, I have her gardening calendar, perpetual gardening calendar up and her work is beautiful.

Let’s see, I don’t know, what else you got, Rebecca?

Rebecca:
Well, same back at you, Andrea. Andrea has other books. What, the first time I learned about Andrea, was from the book that my children were gifted by three different people called Mary and the Trail of Teears and then I met Andrea after when she was doing a book signing of those.

Go support Andrea and the Highlights Foundation and the publishing house that we worked with for this book is quite amazing and their lineup of books so Levine Querido, and then I would just say please, please support your local bookstores that also more than ever we really direly we need to support them and yeah if you can it takes some discipline, it takes some it’s hard to train ourselves to not go and buy somewhere else where it’s easier and quicker and free shipping so it takes a little effort but it’s, it’s so important, and not just books, but other things, but the bookstores really need it. They need our support, and they will only stay afloat if we support them.

Andrea:
Yeah, and I want to echo that Levine Querido has been really great about publishing contemporary Native stories. There’s a new book out called Coming Home, I think, and I can’t remember the artist. I mean, he’s a wood carver, and of course, I don’t use my short-term memory, I use my phone. So I can’t remember his name, and I can’t Google it because I’m on the phone with you.

Anyway, Coming Home is a Hopi wood carver. I want to say it’s not Matawa, it’s Mavus. I’m going to butcher it. And it’s a beautiful book, and it’s about Hopi resistance to having their children taken away to residential schools. And those stories are important, even though it’s not a contemporary story, it’s an important story because, you know, we did resist. I mean, you know, and we resisted having our children taken away, we resisted having our language taken away, we resisted having our land taken away.

And those stories, you know, you don’t see enough of those. And so this story of a Hopi resistance story, Coming Home, it’s beautiful. It’s a beautiful book. If you look at Debbie Reese’s article in PEN America, or interview in PEN America, she mentions it, so you can find it there too. And she also gave a great shout-out to Chooch, and I really appreciate it.

Cat:
I’ll look it up and make sure to, when we transcribe this, we’ll make sure it’s in this transcription. So that way you have the author’s name and the name of the book:

Coming Home: A Hopi Resistance Story, by Mavasta Honyouti

Native American Heritage Now: An Interview with Debbie Reese.

Andrea:
Debbie’s wonderful.

Cat:
Congratulations again on this beautiful new book baby that’s out in the World. A new beautiful, beautiful book that I’m instantly in love with, cannot wait to reread. For those that may want to buy and order a copy, you can always purchase books at our virtual bookshop powered by Bookshop.org or if those of you that are in the area, please make your way down to Tulsa, Oklahoma if you’re in that area. Andrea and Rebecca will be signing books and reading this Saturday, November 23rd at Magic City Books at 2 p.m., so please, please make your way over there if you are in the area because I am so jelly for the people that are in the area because they’re so fun.

Thank you both so much for joining me, for chatting with me, for celebrating this beautiful book, and for what a work of art you have in the world, so thank you, thank you. And thank you all of you for joining us, it was a fun time.

Take care of yourselves everyone, be well. and we will have this available um imminently. We’ll also have a blog post about this and we’ll do a transcription and I’ll send that over to you when it’s ready.

And in the meantime take care of yourselves and thank you Andrea. Thank you so much Rebecca and we’ll speak soon. Bye everyone. Thank you for having us. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.